Monday, April 2, 2012

Stealing Ideas

Somehow, Friday came and went without a post from me. I dont really remember WTF I was doing outside of work the last four or five days to be honest. Its just a blur or sleeping, eating, working and shitting. So right now, Im stealing another bloggers idea for a post. Mostly because its one Ive wanted to do, but dont feel like copying anyone. So Im doing it first and he will copy me. Im even going to steal his formatting of his prior Punisher guide. WINNING!

The Vengeance: My Thoughts

This is an awesomely amazing ship. Thats the simple, one sentence description of this god-like Assault Frigate. Many people fly the Rifter hulls and its t2 counterparts, the Wolf and Jaguar; but the Vengeance is an entirely different beast. I feel being able to take damage while also dealing out the damage is the key to winning a battle. As a direct upgrade to the Punisher, it flies in similar ways, close range brawling.

Amarr ships, imo, are the most skill point intensive ships in EVE. You need good capacitor skills (anything that conserves, increases, or regenerates capacitor). Along with that, Lasers use alot of capacitor, so the ship specific skill assists by having a cap reduction bonus for lasers on nearly all Amarrian ships. The majority of Amarrian vessels are armor tanked, so you need acceptable levels of armor compensation skills as well as both Mechanic and Hull Upgrades 4 (preferablely 5 for rank 1 and 2 skills). NNavigation skills help, but really are only needed for the cap reduction skills, which in the process, allow you to use an MWD or AB. For the Vengeance, you need decent missile skills; you dont want your rockets running out of fuel at 5km, missing your target orbiting at 6km. Like all ships, rigging skills, thermodynamics and Tactical Shield Manipulation are all nice to have.

Large base capacitor
Quickly regenerating capacitor
High base resists

Low damage output
Easily kited
Suspectible to Capacitor Warfare tactics

Vengeance Info
The Vengeance represents the latest in the Kingdom's ongoing mission to wed Amarr and Caldari tech, molding the two into new and exciting forms. Sporting a Caldari ship's launcher hardpoints as well as an Amarr ship's armor systems, this relentless slugger is perfect for when you need to get up close and personal.

Developer: Khanid Innovation

Constantly striving to combine the best of two worlds, Khanid Innovation have utilized their Caldari connections to such an extent that the Kingdom's ships now possess the most advanced missile systems outside Caldari space, as well as fairly robust electronics systems.

Amarr Frigate Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to Rocket Damage per level
-5% bonus to Missile Launcher Rate of Fire per level

Assault Ships Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to Armor Resistances per level
5% bonus to Capacitor Recharge Rate per level

Role bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

My Current Fit
Zainou 'Gypsy' Electronics EE-603

Internal Force Field Array I
Centii A-Type Small Armor Repairer
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
True Sansha Energized Thermic Membrane

Gistii B-Type 1MN MicroWarpdrive
Dark Blood Warp Scrambler
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier

Rocket Launcher II, Inferno Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Inferno Rage Rocket
Corpii C-Type Small Nosferatu
Rocket Launcher II, Inferno Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Inferno Rage Rocket

Small Capacitor Control Circuit I
Small Bay Loading Accelerator II

The Whys
OMG, look at all that shiny modules!! I can NEVER afford that!! Actually...You can! Well, maybe. Anyways, ISK doesnt matter to me. I aquired the modules I did to accomplish the fit I wanted. I personally hate using armor plates. My experience using them in a Punisher and early Vengeance fits wasnt where I expected them to perform. Maybe I just expected too much, I dunno.

Anyhow, I feel the more resists you got, the better. If you resist 80% of a 100 point shot, you only take 20 damage. Simple enough, right? That scaling applies all the way to titans, where even if you have 99% resists, a shot from them will one shot your Vengeance. Regardless, this is my thought process behind my fit. To fit multiple Energized plates, you need to go faction. High alpha'ing ships are not to be taken lightly.

I felt the t2 small reppers couldnt keep up with the damage output of a wolf or jag (an early lesson learned) so I first upgraded to a small imperial navy repper. It also had issues keeping up. So I went to c-type, with better results, but I wanted more. So I went to the a-type. This also was not enough for me, so I started using Exile boosters. I started with Standards, moving to Improved and recently I have aquired (but not used) Strong Exiles. In any case, Im always trying to increase the tank ability on my ship. Its what it excels at, so I refuse to let it take a back seat to dps even though I am trying out a dps oriented fit soon. With a skilled pilot inside, blaster boats still hurt and are capable of breaking my tank when in closer than 3km, so I avoid those fights if possible.

Early in my pvp career, the bane of my existence were the kiting ships. Always just outside of my range to scram or web, let alone hit, even with scorch. My solution to this after many, many battles was to go faction for the extended range. 14km range on web and 10.5 on scram is a nasty surprise for those who like to sit in the "sweet spot" zone of most modules of lesser quality.

Recent additions to the Assault Ship role was the MWD bonus, which I switched to using recently. With an MWD, I can zoom into my optimal range. Using the longer ranged scram and web, I am able to close range again quickly once they get outside their scram/web range, preventing their escape. I used to use an afterburner, however, I have discovered the advantages the MWD has over an AB. Having High Speed Manuevering 5 is definately on my skill plan to get asap.

As for the NOS, I just got tired of people neuting me from 7500m while my regular nos has only 6600m range. With no cap, I can not repair damage. If I cant repair damage, my ship explodes. With the cap rigging instead of an EM armor rigging, EM is the lowest resist at 77% with my current skills; however, my capactior regernation rate is much more capable of handling 2 small neuts as well as a single medium neutralizer with micro-managing of modules. Practicing with corp mates has provided extremely helpful experience in learning this ability.

Speaking of practicing, I highly reccomend doing so with your corpmates. Learning to ignore the adrenaline of combat will not be learned in this practice, but the abilities to manage modules, keep range in optimals, as well as chasing and getting away will all be turned from a difficult thing to do in middle of combat to something people call "muscle-memory". You laugh, but its true. In the heat of battle, being able to fall back on those practiced skills while trying to turn down the thumps of your heartbeating furiously pumping more and more adrenaline throughout your body....Its a rush you dont find in many places, in or out of New Eden.

Obviosuly, I use Rocket Launcher II's, but some people have used autocannons similar to the Punisher, prior to the AF buff. Another topic, but Ive always felt autocannons are overrated. Personally, I use t2 ammo. I have faction ammo, but I havent used it often. Usually, thermal is pre-loaded as the common low resist, but depending on local targets on dscan, will switch to any of the four types of resists available to me. I have no preference to one or the other, but t2 ammo does have more "dps" but less range than faction ammo. I would suggest using faction ammo against smaller, faster targets while using t2 for larger, slower moving opponents; but like I said, I dont use faction ammo, so my advice here can be taken lightly.

There are several downsides to my ship and fit. The main one is capacitor reliance. If its gone, Im dead. From the first moment I entered my first clone in EVE, hearing Aura warn me about not having enough capacitor or it being empty has been terrible. Its engrained into my skull and every single one of my clones that having no capacitor is death. Even with low or slowly regenerating capacitor is better than being capped out. The second downside to the Vengeance is that it is probally the slowest of all Assault Frigates at the baseline level. If a ship wants to gtfo, it usually has a high probability of doing so. Third issue is the low dps output. Make sure you carry plenty of ammo. The Vengeance will outlast the majority of ships in its class, so its a game of perseverance. Who can hold out the longest, or gtfo first.

Two of those problems are solved with my current fit shown above, higher capacitor and regen helps in negating Neuts and longer range scram and web assist in getting back into range with the MWD when able to activate it. The third problem of low dps is really not an issue as many ships Ive encountered cannot maintain a long term, cap stable tank. Only one other assault frigate have I fought against been able to both break my tank as well as hold its tank long enough to beat me was specifically fit to kill my fit. Keep that in mind, if the enemies know your fit, they can counter it easier. Less intel given is less advantage over you given.

And that is how I view the Vengeance. I guess its not much of a guide as much as a "my thoughts" on the ship, eh?


  1. Ah well my guide was always going to a long time coming, you've had much more experience in the Vengeance than I have. So I don't really feel like I've been stolen from :P
    Also I found your rig slots interesting. I normally go for an auxiliary nano pump and a bay loading accelerator/anti-thermic pump. Does the extra cap help more than more armour repaired?

    And I've been meaning to have a look at drugs for a while now, is Synth Exile actually worth using at all, or is Standard/Strong better? It seems stupidly expensive for only a few % more rep, and the side effects (explosion radius) seem like a bad idea. Obviously though I don't have first hand experience...

    But nice fit and a good write up, I'm not too sure I'd want to sink that much into a Vengeance hull with my wallet how it is, but if you can afford it, why not?

    1. Tbh, I liked your punisher guide, is why I attempted to copy it, but Im not that good at doing guides =P

      I did try the nano pump fit, but I found not much can break the tank and if they can, their dps output is so much that you cant repair it fast enough. I did not try the nano accelerator though. Until recently though, I have been using an EM rig and a CCC with my thermic plate in the low slot, giving 80%+ resists across the board. By recently, I mean since January, because Ive been using that same Vengeance since about that time.

      Imo, if you want to use synth, go ahead. Its 3% (I think) more boost to rep amount with no downsides. I would suggest using synth when first using boosters because you might forget you have them in your hold (like I did in one or two lossmails). Standard is definately worth it imo though, and if you invest in the skillbooks to reduce the penalties and chance of getting the penalties, then improved and Strong versions are viable as well, if you want to spend that much for an AF.

      As for the downside, I use exile in almost every fight, even practice fights, so that I could become used to the side effects and have the penalties be normal if I got them and a bonus if I didnt. If your opponent is moving super fast, even under web (500+ m/s under web) then you may have issues hitting him, but personally, Ive learned that when those pilots find they cant break my tank, they disengage anyways.

      I agree as well on the exspense of the ship. Alot of the modules I won on blink, or aquired using winnings turned into ISK on Blink. Yeah, the value of the ship is high, but as far as actual lost isk, its minimal. Maybe even less than anyones normal fit when you count that I pay 4-8 misk per Vengeance I win on Blink and a fraction of the cost for the other modules.

    2. Well Exile sounds interesting, I may have to give it a try. And that's a good point about the auxiliary rig, I'll have to rethink my fit a little. I like the idea of 80% + resistances but I'm not a huge fan of the faction modules right now :P

      I'll have to see what I can cobble together in EFT

    3. One of my original fits prior to spending isk on better modules. Definately not as much tank, but still 82% or higher on all resists with kinetic being the lowest at 81.9% Cap stable with my skills at 62%, plenty of room to handle a couple small neuts or medium as well. Downside being it is using an AB instead of MWD (which will fit in place of the AB btw). It only slightly reduces the ability to counter neuts, but still able to do so. Personally, with the experience I have now, I would switch to the MWD instead of the AB.

      Fit to taste though.

      [Vengeance, Non Faction]
      Internal Force Field Array I
      Small Armor Repairer II
      Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
      Thermic Plating II

      Experimental 1MN Afterburner I
      Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
      Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

      Rocket Launcher II, Inferno Rage Rocket
      Rocket Launcher II, Inferno Rage Rocket
      Rocket Launcher II, Inferno Rage Rocket
      Rocket Launcher II, Inferno Rage Rocket
      Small Diminishing Power System Drain I

      Small Anti-Thermic Pump I
      Small Anti-EM Pump I

    4. Oh yeah, and dont forget to put the nos in the middle of the 4 launchers to help in getting a few more seconds of overheating out of the launchers. Every extra bit helps!

    5. Hah, that fit is scarily close to my "Poor man's Vengeance" that I've been messing with in EFT (except your's has better resists). Thanks for the fit!

      While I've recently had a run of luck on SOMER, I'm still a little too poor to fit out your pimp Vengeance :P